Beyond Distracted Episode 5: Kat Ross

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Website: https://www.beyond-distracted.com/podcast/episode/1c023bfe/astrophysics-adhd-and-rethinking-how-we-learn

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Kat Ross (00:03):

Everything about me was the stereotypical naughty boy in class that we all have. But because I had good grades and I was a woman, I wasn't picked up as, let's have a closer look at this. So there was a real grief of what I could have been, had this been diagnosed earlier, but then it sort of evolved into anger with that realization of the signs were all there. I end that stereotypical case, everything was there. So an anger of just [00:00:30] what is a system that misses someone like me who is stereotypical? What about all the people that aren't stereotypical? How can we have something that just really lets so many people down and forces us to internalize all these issues?

Anthony Brown (00:52):

Welcome to Beyond Distracted, where we talk with successful people with ADHD, explore the highs and lows of their journey and learn the creative and [00:01:00] insightful ways they live their lives in a neurodiverse friendly way. My name is Anthony Brown

Meagan Cooke (01:03):

And my name is Megan Cook and we're psychologists with ADHD. We hope our episodes are entertaining and change the conversation around ADHD, but it's no substitute for the real thing. So for personal support, we recommend getting help from a qualified mental health professional.

Anthony Brown (01:27):

Our guest today, Kat Ross, is an astrophysicist and [00:01:30] researcher using the novel techniques of spectral variability to study active galactic nuclei in Galaxy evolution, which is fantastic because all those words means things about space and that's super interesting. Noelle will likely spend the weekend in a ol trying to understand what Galaxy evolution means. She is also the science communicator and the founder of Include Her, which addresses gender imbalance and STEM by providing visible role models, which is a really, really good idea. They're a proud bisexual gender and neurodiverse person. [00:02:00] All good things to be super excited. Kat, thanks for chatting with us today.

Kat Ross (02:04):

Thank you so much for having me. And you nailed the pronunciation.

Meagan Cooke (02:10):

Yes, yes. Well, that's a goal for today. I didn't understand a few of those words, but lucky we're actually not here to talk about that.

Kat Ross (02:15):

I can absolutely explain them if you want, but yeah, we can keep that. As a side note,

Meagan Cooke (02:21):

I think like Anthony said, it sounds incredibly interesting, but it's lovely to have you here to talk about DHD and other diversity

Kat Ross (02:28):

And knowing the three [00:02:30] of us, I think if we start on the space talk, we're not leaving it. We're going to stick on that topic. Exactly.

Anthony Brown (02:36):

Yeah, for sure. And that is my weekend plan after all, kind of research those things. So that's fun. So I was reading an article that you did for Space Australia where you wrote about the anger and frustration of a late life diagnosis and how it changed the way you saw your life. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that experiance?

Kat Ross (02:57):

 Yeah, I think I wrote that article not long [00:03:00] after being diagnosed, and that's sort of the official diagnosis. But I think everyone here knows, and many people listening is probably aware that the process of getting diagnosed is very lengthy. So this is sort of after enough time where I've come to terms with it, I've accepted it, and then finally having the validation of being diagnosed. This was a few years ago now, and I've noticed as well many friends having a similar journey of you sort of start off with this acceptance, but then there's this real grief period of who could I have been if [00:03:30] I was diagnosed earlier, if this was picked up earlier, things have been so much harder for me and I thought that it was me that was a problem and it's not, and all of these things where everyone else seems to be fine.

(03:42):

I could have been fine if this was picked up earlier. And I think I especially had that grief because everything about me was the stereotypical naughty boy in class that we all have. But because I had good grades and I was a woman, I wasn't picked up as, let's have a closer look at this. [00:04:00] So there was a real grief of what I could have been, had this been diagnosed earlier, but then it sort of evolved into anger with that realization of the signs were all there and that stereotypical case, everything was there. So an anger of just what is a system that misses someone like me who is stereotypical? What about all the people that aren't stereotypical? How can we have something that just really lets so many people down and forces us to internalize all these issues? So then there was just a real anger [00:04:30] of unpacking that grief of what my life could have looked like and the realization that it'ss very similar for a lot of people in the community.

(04:39):

So that article really came around of just, I'm glad I am where I am, but this journey didn't have to come with so much sacrifice and self hatred and pain along the way. It could have been so much smoother. And hopefully just by me sharing that journey, not only will the experience of that cycle of [00:05:00] acceptance, grief and anger in the diagnosis journey, but also hopefully more light on just what it can look like for people, what a DHD is. And so people can hopefully see it around them, see it in their lives, maybe just have some more of that visibility around what it can be.

Meagan Cooke (05:18):

But no, I think, yeah, a couple of things that were really interesting in that for me, Kat, but the first one is you talk about that stereotypical presentation, but like you say, being female and [00:05:30] of our generation is actually not necessarily stereotypical.

Kat Ross (05:33):

Exactly.

Meagan Cooke (05:34):

So the behaviors may be but as a presentation, right? As a person, not necessarily. So even with perhaps more overt behaviors, still no sort of response or follow up or even sort of curiosity about what might've been happening for you and had those behaviors been in the classroom with a male student, I'm sure that would've approached really differently. And like you said, the next step [00:06:00] of that is females that are more prone to perhaps internalized restlessness, masking all these other things that make it even identified. Exactly. So that's really interesting. And the second one I wanted to pick out and just it really resonated with me in terms of a lot of client work I do, is that idea of the grief of who I could have been. And I think that is very real for a lot of adult diagnosis. But I think it's also that realization is that for some people they might not have been any different in terms [00:06:30] of their profession, industry accomplishments, but it's the cost along the way that you talk about. It's like that sacrifice, that pain and just that sort of, I can imagine sort of shame something you've said before about that negative self-talk that just becomes so ingrained along the way.

Kat Ross (06:47):

Exactly. Yeah. But the astrophysics was always there. Ever since I was a little kid, it was always there. And in a classic A DHD career path, I dabbled in a bit of everything along the way and there were a lot of side [00:07:00] paths and I steer the way, but astrophysics was always a central theme. And it's just the thinking back to university, absolutely no problems in learning the content. I've always been a knowledge sponge, like the dopamine of learning something new has always been so thrilling for me, which is again, why I think I always do well in school. And it was just overlooked because you're getting good grades, so just leave class if you're going to distract everyone because you already know the content. And so the learning was no issue at university, but it was the self-discipline of keeping up with assignments. [00:07:30] It was a self-discipline of showing up on time.

(07:32):

It was all of those things, which is what's marked. It's graded, it's what's measured. And so the unfortunate thing is that I'd gone from being such the gifted and talented doing so well at school, then removed the structure, and then suddenly I can learn everything. I could talk about it for hours and hours and I loved it, but I couldn't perform well at university. And so this then negative self-talk, the questioning that comes into, am I actually good enough for this that [00:08:00] it must be me? That's the problem because no one else seems to be struggling. And while I was doing well at school, I maybe not good enough to do it at this level. That must be the problem when in actual fact it wasn't the level of the physics that was the problem. I understood all the content, but the structure that was removed and the barriers that were enforced as a result, that was where the issue was.

(08:19):

And so looking back at that, the grease that came of, I see so many frames that excelled at university that got all these awards, that got all these scholarships and the scholarships then made things easier [00:08:30] because they weren't having financial issues. Whereas I had the financial issues, I had all these and everything along the way that kind of compounded and that grief of it could have been such a breeze had I just had that sweet little medication along the way, or even just the language to describe what was going on and the acceptance of today's a bad day, that's fine. Which has certainly been one of the things post-diagnosis for me. Yeah,

Anthony Brown (08:57):

Yeah, totally. That's a very valid grief. [00:09:00] We see where that grief and frustration would come from over time. As you've kind of sat live up more and had some time to process it, what things have been helpful for that grief for you? Have there been things that have made it easier kind of work?

Kat Ross (09:15):

I think in the same way everyone's always talks about you regret the shots you don't take, but no one really regrets the mistakes. You eventually come to terms and you accept it. I think it's the same sort of thing of just eventually it was coming to terms with an accepting [00:09:30] it. I'm a product of a system of my generation, which didn't pick up people like me. So the best thing that I can do for that acceptance is help to change that system to help bring light to the different presentations, show that women who shockingly also have a DHD, and just start to start that narrative to change things, but also help show that I think there's a lot of people in my generation as well that are learning. They were actually diagnosed as kids and their parents didn't tell them or they refused to get any medication, [00:10:00] a lot of these things.

(10:01):

And then they've gotten diagnosed as an adult and gone back to their parents saying, look, I have this thing. The parents are like, no, you don't. Don't worry. They choked about that when you're a kid and it's not an issue. So I think also the demonstration that it doesn't need to be so disabling, it doesn't need to be something that can derail your life. It's not necessarily an exclusively negative thing. Yes, there are obviously a lot of negatives that come with it, but I think trying to show a lot of parents as well that it's far better [00:10:30] to accept that your child has this and support them because then they won't have this same sort of grief that I have of the life that I've had. And that's also something that I can help to accept the life that I've had and stop that from happening to someone else.

Meagan Cooke (10:45):

It's the grief, but also the secondary impacts that you've talked about, they acknowledge it and offer that support or access to treatment from a much younger

Kat Ross (10:54):

Age. Yeah, exactly. I think of the work. I mean, I was diagnosed. [00:11:00] I have no idea. I tell people now, when people say that they got diagnosed, my first thing is obviously congratulations, very exciting. But secondly, put the date in your diary so you can have an anniversary of when you were diagnosed. I can't remember when I was diagnosed, I think around 2022. That's so interesting. I have no clue. And I'm trying to think of what was going on in my life, and it was during the PhD, but I don't know. So I think back then of [00:11:30] I've just been diagnosed, where was I going with this now? I've lost my train of thought entirely. Okay, so sorry. It was like five years and the work that I've put in since all the development that I've been able to have of self-acceptance and learning new skills and being able to work with my brain, not against it and forcing it into a system that doesn't work for my brain, that work has taken many years to get even remotely comfortable with, let alone good at.

(11:57):

And I think if that journey had started so much earlier, [00:12:00] that would just be amazing. The medication is great, yes, but you still have to learn these skills. It's essentially learning from scratch again, and then you're doing this while you have a full-time job or while you're studying, and it becomes so much harder to balance that and explain that in a professional environment of like, I'm going to be basically starting from scratch and I don't know how good I'm going to be at my job for the next unknown amount of time. That's very hard to do in a capitalist society.

Meagan Cooke (12:27):

It's incredibly hard to do. Very, very brave. [00:12:30] What was the response like for you?

Kat Ross (12:33):

I'm very lucky in that I had a lot of support. Firstly, when I was in my undergraduate, I did an honors project with someone who turned out to be frankly, a dreadful supervisor. There were a lot of issues there were openly sexist. It was a really tough time, one of the worst years that I've gone through. Because of that experience, I was really conscious of who I chose as a PhD supervisor. So I went through very rigorous testing to find my supervisors, [00:13:00] and I'm very thankful for that because it was, I'm sure this will help obviously with the project, but my main reasoning was if something goes wrong, which inevitably it will in a PhD, I want to know that I can actually turn to a supervisor or have the support of my supervisor and the understanding of that. And then obviously, thank goodness that was the case.

(13:18):

COVID hit got diagnosed with A DHD, suffered anxiety and depression, obviously the PhD, it was a disaster. Everything was going on. And I had the support of my supervisor that whole time. She was actually one of the first [00:13:30] people I told is basically call my parents, call my supervisor was basically, and she was unbelievably supportive of basically obviously fine and just let me know what you want, what changed. And I explained that ultimately I'd had it the whole time. So realistically, it should only go up from here in theory. And I think average trend upwards, but some up and downs along the way, certainly.

Meagan Cooke (13:57):

Oh, of course. And nothing's linear. I think that's a really [00:14:00] improve message, right? It's going to come with the up and downs. I really like that idea though, in terms of trajectory.

(14:06):

Just take a step back and go, yes, it gets better. Of course there's going to be bump and Absolutely.

Kat Ross (14:11):

Yeah, and I mean, I am a scientist. I want the data and you can't draw a trend from one month of data on a long-term trend. So it's really taken the multiple years of now looking back and seeing the things that would completely derail an entire day's work for me now are not that impactful at all, which is to see that growth

Anthony Brown (14:29):

In that [00:14:30] article. Like I mentioned before, you spoke about the perception of there being one mold of scientists thinking and working a certain way. Many people with a DHD would kind of feel that there's one mold of success for what they in general, and it's a common conception. What's been your experience of that in science on how to that kind of relate to your neurodiversity?

Kat Ross (14:53):

Yeah, I think the mold for scientists has impacted me in multiple ways. I mean, [00:15:00] this is a podcast so people can't necessarily see, but feel free to look me up online. I'm very pink, I'm very bright, I'm very loud, I'm very colorful, and that is very much not what people picture when they think of physicists. And so when I got to university, the mold was nerdy boy in a nerdy tee with jeans and sneakers and that was it. So it was terrifying walking into lecture theaters. I come from an all girls school that was very drama and music focus. So I came from a class of [00:15:30] three people in my physics class to then a lecture theater with hundreds, and it was just almost exclusively men. So the impact of things like that, of not just having the stereotype in your head but thinking, I'm not like that.

(15:43):

It's okay. But having the visual, like a wall, just this huge impact, it's very hard to shake that stereotype as well, that reinforcement just in your face at every lecture. So if you look back at photos of me in undergraduate, I was very [00:16:00] nerdy. Tea jeans, sneakers, blend in with everyone there, remove anything that doesn't fit like everyone else because I clearly stand out as a woman, I clearly stand out if I want to wear pink. And I also feel like I stand out because I don't think everyone else here. And so seeing people just able to pay attention in a lecture and you're like, okay, well you should just focus. And then that pay attention to class. And then obviously that didn't work, I think unsurprisingly. And so then you'd get into this route of like, well, clearly [00:16:30] I'm a bad scientist. And down that spiral you would go.

(16:33):

So this idea that everyone learns by, you pay attention in class, you learn the content, and then you go to a tutorial and you practice that question, and now you can do this thing. You understand it. Maybe you need a little more back and forth, but ultimately that process and that when you're studying, put yourself in a quiet room with no distractions and make sure that your phone is away and you sit there in silence and you focus on a single task. [00:17:00] I could literally imagine nothing worse. It's like a torture chamber that is just horrifying and just telling me to do a task. Well, now I'm not going to do it, am I? You've absolutely not. So all of these ways of studying and that this is the only way to study, this is the only way to learn. You can't possibly take in any information if you have background noise, you can't take any information on if you have anything going on in the background.

(17:23):

When I learned, one of the greatest things that I found post-diagnosis is accepting what I like to [00:17:30] call my dopamine threshold for learning. So if something is incredibly exciting, if it's a hyperfocus of the moment, it's something really, really intricate and I love it, then it's already above this dopamine threshold, in which case I want nothing and any destruction, I'll get furious. So remove everything or yell at whoever's nearby, whatever. This is super exciting and I'm all in. And once you're in that hyper focus zone, nothing can take you out of it. But then if you're below [00:18:00] that dopamine threshold, your brain will add whatever it can to reach that dopamine threshold. So you can try and remove all distractions, but your brain will add them in, it will reach them. So I've found adding enough stimulation, enough dopamine in so that the task I actually need to do is possible.

(18:18):

So for me, that looks like emails are, I'm never going to, it's the worst. I absolutely hate the emails. I can't do them. So I've learned, put on a show that I've seen a billion times before, watch Netflix while I do the emails. [00:18:30] It's fine. I don't actually need to pay attention to the show. I've seen it 5,000 times before. I know exactly what's happening, but there's enough of the interesting fun thing that now emails are above that threshold and I can focus on my emails. So the amount that you add depends on what the task is, and there's been some jiggling for me to learn what I can add, but that was if anyone in undergraduate saw me doing any amount of work, listening to an audiobook or having some music on or watching a show while doing simple maths, it was, [00:19:00] you're clearly not learning this. You're clearly not studying, and that is just not true. This is how I've learned and it works well for me.

Anthony Brown (19:08):

Yeah, that makes sense. Right?

Kat Ross (19:10):

Yeah. And everyone seems happy to accept that a teacher will explain things in multiple different ways for neurotypicals to understand things. Oh, some neurotypicals will understand this and some will understand this, but saying then you're a divergent kid will want to learn things in a completely different way or a different environment. Oh, that's too much. That's a step too far. Yeah,

Meagan Cooke (19:29):

That was such a wonderful [00:19:30] explanation, Kat. Thank you. I think a lot of listeners are going to think, oh, that's exactly what I do, and not necessarily understand the reason why. I think people do intuitively listen and Oh, this is hard for me. So they reach for something or they do something. Exactly. So it's great to help develop that understanding of what is actually going on for you. You just meet that threshold so you can get that thing done. You really don't want to do, because noting or it's too much detail.

Kat Ross (19:56):

The issue of before the diagnosis, it was this [00:20:00] is not how you work, so you shouldn't do that and removing it and your brain will do it. You can't fight your brain on that. It's going to do it. So accepting that it's going to be a thing, being able to have that understanding, this is one of those things of, it took many years to learn what to be added with what task, and there was a lot of jiggly and sometimes getting it wrong, obviously, but that's a long and lengthy process that's different for everyone. And now I can look back and I can also understand and explain to my supervisors that, [00:20:30] yes, I'm working, but I'm also watching Netflix, but you can trust that my system is good for me. It's hard to make that clarification or justification when you don't have the language or the diagnosis to kind of explain it.

Anthony Brown (20:47):

A new ADHD diagnosis can be a big adjustment. It can be emotional, raise many questions and leave you wondering what to do next. Undistracted is our post-diagnosis support service that educates people about what ADHD is, [00:21:00] how it works, practical strategies and next steps for treatment, helping you navigate this stage with clarity. If you're looking for support for yourself, for your family, visit beyond-distracted.com to get started.

Meagan Cooke (21:16):

Oh, absolutely. And it's the misconception from others. And then like you said, the internalizing, like the sort of shame, oh, well maybe I'm not really studying, or why can't I do it that way? Why is it harder for me or am I actually learning this or am I just watching Netflix [00:21:30] without that understanding? Yeah,

Anthony Brown (21:32):

Yeah. That's great. And I guess when you think about different people with different brains working on a problem together, there are things that neurodiversity can offer to solving those problems and contribute to the field. How do you think your neurodiversity has contributed to your career and how has it affected things?

Kat Ross (21:54):

I think especially in astrophysics, most of what we're looking at is obviously quite abstract. You can't [00:22:00] actually go to the galaxy to look at it and see what's going on. So the ability to just kind of have this very step back view, broad picture piece things together has been very, very useful. So in my PhD, I'm going to try and take out as much space as I can so that we get distracted. In my PhD, I was studying these young galaxies that we thought were young, but they shouldn't be changing. And then we found they were changing and suddenly we had to come up with an explanation of [00:22:30] how they could change, given all our theories suggested that they wouldn't do that. And so there was a problem and no idea of a solution and all the potential solutions came from the same sort of field.

(22:43):

But being able to just step back and be like, okay, broadly, let's look beyond that. Let's look at all of astrophysics. Let's look at everything that's changing. Let's look at all of these things and how can I put them in there? And I loved that there were days where I could literally just sit at my computer, stare at a plot and just sit [00:23:00] there and ponder and think through. And I think this is where the A DHD brain is great because you've got 50 thoughts happening every half a second. So just being able to turn through this was one of those ones where it's pure focus. I'm excited for this problem. And having my full A DHD brain unstopped just off you go at this problem was fantastic. And I don't know that we would've been able to come up with the solution or figure out what was going on in the timeframe of a PhD [00:23:30] without that.

(23:31):

At the very least, being able to come up with ways that we can test that idea, a PhD is only for me three and a half years. It was really short. So being able to come up with a potential idea, propose observations, test it, and then reach that conclusion is a really short timescale for that. So the A DHD, being able to have that picture definitely helped there. And then the little details, the being able to, when we figured out what it was, it was an area of science that none of my supervisors had expertise [00:24:00] in. So it wasn't one of those things that I could go to them and say, what are the major papers that I should read? Where's the background I should go on? They also had no idea It was new for all of us. So this ability, again, like I said, I've always been a knowledge sponge.

(24:13):

I like the idea of just taking in vast amounts of information. And so being able to just sift through decades and decades of research on this field and pick out the bits that are relevant, pick out the bits that is useful to me. Again, that the A DHD [00:24:30] was so necessary and useful for that, and I'm very thankful for it in most circumstances. I just dunno that it would've been possible to do that to the timescale that I had and with the support that we had at the time. So any, she is definitely, I wouldn't say that I'm not a huge fan when people say it's a superpower, so many negative things related to it, but it was definitely a very, very helpful skill at that time. Yeah.

Meagan Cooke (25:00):

[00:25:00] Yeah. I feel the same way about that expression. I think it minimizes the challenges that come with it. Exactly. But that is a wonderful, wonderful exploration of it does have its strengths. It really does. And it's so necessary. Like you said, your brain was the one that was able to answer that question, to think outside the box, to take the bigger picture, and that's amazing. What an achievement.

Kat Ross (25:24):

Thank you.

Anthony Brown (25:26):

And I guess, what things do you find helpful for supporting your A DHD? [00:25:30] How do you keep track of what you need to do, resume recharge, and most importantly, how do you fidget? Do you have things that you go to?

Kat Ross (25:39):

I mean, you are watching me literally fidget with my fidget ring at the moment. I have lost every other ring that I've owned. This fidget ring is the only ring that has lasted longer than a week, and I've had it for years now. So I always have fidgets with me at all times, and I have several of them. It's also been a thing, I have a little bowl at my desk with the different fidgets, different days called for [00:26:00] different fidgets. I think that's hopefully, but also it's now become a thing that students will know that my desk has fidgets. So they'll also come as kind of like a fidget library. They come and pick one out and they'll fidget for a day and they might drop it back off or it swaps around. So I think, oh, that's

Meagan Cooke (26:15):

Fantastic.

Kat Ross (26:16):

Yeah, it's become now an accepted thing of just like people need fidgets sometimes and that's necessary. So as fidgets, I have so many different types and I've picked up which ones I prefer and gotten more [00:26:30] of those. Whenever I find one that I like, I'm like, lemme get 20 because I'll fidget them to death, so I need more of them or

Meagan Cooke (26:36):

Lose them.

Kat Ross (26:37):

Also that, and I've found if I put fidgets in every place that I could possibly want them, then there's always one on hand and I can't lose it. So that's also helpful. Otherwise you are asking me, sorry, I've already forgotten the question.

Anthony Brown (26:50):

Oh, no, that's fair. I asked three questions and one, but how do you keep track of what you need to do? What things do you find helpful for that?

Kat Ross (26:57):

Yeah, this one of my, I mean, I still struggle [00:27:00] with this. There are definitely things that I will forget inevitably, particularly whenever I get a new job, which is very common in academia to shift around jobs, I sort of have to relearn those skills as you are managing or picking up new things that are regularly what you have to do. So far the best thing that I've learned, especially on those days when I sit there, I'm like, I feel like I have a billion things to do, but I have no idea which one or where to start. I'm going to, there's a lot of hate here, but let me finish. I promise I do a to-do list. [00:27:30] And I know that's one of the worst possible things. It's the classic neurotypical. Have you tried doing a to-do list? Yes, I have. And it's useless. It's specifically, I do my brain dump to-do list.

(27:42):

So the brain dump to-do list is literally every possible thing under the sun. Don't worry about how big it gets everything. Add every possible imaginable thing that could be on it. It could be small, it could be big. Just put it on there so that I won't forget it. It's on there and I can't forget it now. And [00:28:00] then turn a page, make sure you can't see that to-do list. And then you write your, okay, now what am I going to do today? Or what are the things that I actually need to do right now? And that way there's the comfort of, I know I can come back to this list that I've not forgotten everything that's there, but I have a manageable amount here. If you look at the brain dump to-do list, it's usually for me at least a page long. And that is so overwhelming and so scary to look at.

(28:24):

So the comfort of, I can actually wipe my brain and forget about, I don't need to have the brain [00:28:30] space of remembering those things. It's written down, it's there. And I've now got a to-do list that I can look at and not be terrified of. This is just a small one. And then it's often I end up finishing that to-do list very quickly, and you can go back to the brain dump one, pick up a couple more, add them to this one or start another. This is my small to-do list picked from your brain dump one. That's the best strategy I've picked up so far. But it's not a hundred percent effective, I will admit, but it's doing well. All the best one.

Meagan Cooke (29:00):

[00:29:00] It sounds great. And look the a hundred percent effective, that's a fallacy, right?

Kat Ross (29:04):

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think as well, it's the same thing with any habit habits when you're atypical is the things I do all the time. Habits for neurodivergence I think are things you do for a while. You put it down, you come back later, you do it for a while. So I accept that if I'm doing it for a bit, it'll help me when I do it, and then I might get bored of it, not want to do it for a while and come back to it later. And that's still for me, a habit, I would argue. Yeah.

Anthony Brown (29:26):

Yeah, yeah, totally. Why does it need to be sequential? [00:29:30] You don't expect that from many things that you kind of use for your life. Exactly. Tool, right. Cool. So I just want to speak a bit about include her, and I'm really interested in that intersection between neurodiversity and gender and how that can impact someone's career in a field like stem. I was wondering if you could talk a bit about how those things tend to combine together in the field and how they intersect.

Kat Ross (29:55):

This is an interesting one. I mean, include has started before my diagnosis. This was my [00:30:00] classic side hobby distraction. That has since become something that I'm very, very passionate about and less of a hyperfocus and more of a special interest. All I'm doing is a PhD in astrophysics, so it's fair time, obviously. So yeah, this started pre-diagnosis for me, and I think it started really at the time I was working in physics education research. So we were researching how you can teach physics in a way that students not only comprehend the information, but they retain [00:30:30] that information for longer. So techniques that the teachers can use so that we achieve those things. And part of my work was to help with the introduction of a new physics syllabus in New South Wales. In that work was when I realized the complete gender imbalance in the way we present science to students.

(30:49):

There was just this similar process that I had in diagnosis of this kind of initial acceptance. This makes a lot of sense. And then the overwhelming [00:31:00] anger that followed of just what a terrible system. Why? Because I think this belief that women haven't been in physics, we were excluded from so many of the official societies and these institutions, but that hasn't stopped women from participating in the same way that it hasn't stopped other cultures. Western society is not the only scientists in the world. So it's stupid to think that if you weren't a part of Europe in the 17 hundreds or in enlightenment period, [00:31:30] then weren't a scientist. That's such a silly perception to have. So I think this anger of just why would we teach it this way and why did I have to go through this system? And looking back again, seeing this life that I'd had of, I had to hide how I dress or how I wanted to dress so that I would fit in because there was no one that was a woman.

(31:53):

There was no one that was dressed colorfully, and I didn't learn about them either. So I was already pushing beyond what was [00:32:00] acceptable for me. So there was a real personal journey attached to this of the anger and the grief that I felt like I had to be forced to this masculine identity so that I could fit in with my peers and even just be a scientist, when really that's not true. That was just embedded in how we're teaching science. So it really came out, ironically, a lot of similar emotions and things were going on, but not necessarily identified that that was where that had come from. And it's since grown as well. Obviously [00:32:30] there's the need to include credit where credit is due, but also just breaking down what is a scientist, how does a scientist work? And that's come in also with my journey with A DHD of, I don't think like this stereotypical scientist, I don't work like this stereotypical scientist, and I certainly don't look like this stereotypical scientist.

(32:47):

So why do we teach this? I'm not the only one that's like this. There's plenty of us like this. So why do we have an education system that continues to push this idea that science is only done by a straight white man in Europe in the 17 hundreds? [00:33:00] Because it's just completely factually incorrect. And it means that not only do we tell women in high school that your journey ends here. If you want to be a scientist, you don't continue beyond high school, but you also don't. Science isn't done in Australia. We see that science is only done in Europe or that we've finished it, we sold physics. There's nothing new anymore, but maths is done. No mortared learn, and that's also completely incorrect. So we see as a result, obviously there are very few women who progress through to [00:33:30] undergraduate and beyond, we see called the leaky pipeline.

(33:34):

We see women just slowly dropping out or being excluded from these degrees and careers. But we also see an outflow of trained Australian scientists leaving Australia because there's no perception of jobs here. There are jobs, there could be certainly a lot more and a lot more investment in science in Australia. But it's not like there's nothing, there's incredible research happening in Australia and this idea that if you want to be a great scientist, you need to leave here and look a certain way, [00:34:00] be a certain way, think a certain way, is I think just very damaging to the innovation that we need in order to solve some of these major issues that we're facing as a global society. So definitely has been tied to my personal journey of both my feminist journey and also my A DHD journey. And now we're really looking to just change how we see what a scientist is.

(34:22):

So at the moment, we're teaching students who are running these workshops on breaking down this perception that we have of the stale pale males of that's [00:34:30] what a scientist is. Breaking that down, why do we have that narrative and can we change that and see when we're fed that narrative, can we see why we're being fed that narrative? Where does that come from? Is it just a historical bias? Is there a reason behind it? Is there a drive to continue that? And as a result, who's being left behind? Who's being excluded? It's not just women, it's people of color, it's cultures all around the world. It's indigenous folks here. It's everything. So look at this narrative and really understand where it's coming from and the biases embedded [00:35:00] in it.

Meagan Cooke (35:01):

And look, it's so fascinating as you're talking and you sort of inferred this yourself, it's this idea of it's interchangeable what you're just discussing there in terms of gender and neurodivergence. And it's all circling back to that idea of just not fitting the mold and just perhaps operating, looking different, behaving differently, thinking differently, working differently to most other people. And here, what a disadvantage it can put you at. And then you think about [00:35:30] the intersectionality of double the vulnerability. Right, exactly. I like so many of how that works in different places. What a wonderful project, and you've since got your diagnosis. And I can see that it's just naturally moving into that space as well, even if it initially started as a feminist journey.

Kat Ross (35:51):

Yeah, I mean, intersectional feminism is really the only feminism. If you are not bringing all women with you or you're not supporting [00:36:00] equality everywhere for everyone, then actually you are still not supporting women because women are, I first, we're not some conglomerate mass of the same. So you can't really support women without including everyone along that journey. So I think it's become a natural part of, yes, it's called include her, but it also includes obviously queer folks and non-gender conforming folks. It includes people of color, it includes beyond that because you can't just have this one [00:36:30] mass and say, oh, we've included one white woman from Europe, so we've solved that problem. Great.

Meagan Cooke (36:36):

Yeah, and look, I feel like it's a great example of that idea that I think you've described it to me previously, is that sort of flow on domino effect, that when you're doing these things, they end up benefiting everyone.

Kat Ross (36:50):

It's one of those things for sure that you have. Anytime we have accessibility improvements, then it's not something that a single person, it's just for that person. So I think [00:37:00] this is the same thing with having the fidgets at my desk. That was for me, and I know that I need them, but as it turns out, I would argue even your atypicals need fidgets. Everyone needs a fidget occasionally. Fidgets are really useful. And so this perception that, well, if we accommodate you, that makes things worse for everyone, or we're just giving you special things. No, it's helping everyone. And a lot of innovations have come from the disabled community. For example, electric toothbrushes where there is an accessibility item, and then it turns out they're actually really great at cleaning teeth. And so now [00:37:30] they're a general item for everyone. And it's this idea of the ableism that comes from we can't accommodate a single person because what about everyone else? When if you accommodate that person, you're actually accommodating everyone

Meagan Cooke (37:45):

A hundred percent.

Anthony Brown (37:46):

Totally. These things just hold us back as a community. Exactly. If we work on making these things better, we make it better for everyone. So that's really cool. Before we close up today, I guess, what do you think [00:38:00] the best advice about neurodiversity, what's been the best advice about neurodiversity that you've ever heard personally? What's the one that stand out for you, do you think? The

Kat Ross (38:09):

One that stand out for me. Wow, that's really tough. I think it's hard because I think it's quite common when one person gets diagnosed with A DHD, there's a bit of a domino of everyone around them starts to get diagnosed with a HD, we often flop together. And [00:38:30] I think for me personally, I was the domino. I was the one that kicked everyone off around me. So it did me, when I first started, when I was first diagnosed, diagnosed and going through this journey, there wasn't that many people around have that advice. I hopefully have been able to be that person for other people. So I'm just trying to think back. There weren't many people I could talk to. I think probably the biggest thing I've gotten has actually been regarding medication. [00:39:00] I mean medication, A DH, ADHD meds are one of the most effective psych meds for any kind of psych condition.

(39:07):

So I think there's this, and it has changed the life of so many A DHD folks, myself included. So I think there's this view that you take a DH ADHD meds and you're like, everything will be solved or problems will just go away. Amazing. And for me personally, the advice that I got was that the A DH ADHD meds don't solve the problem. They don't make you focus. What they do is create [00:39:30] the environment where you can focus. So without the meds, my brain is 2050 TVs, full volume, showing action movies at different stages. And you try and focus on a conversation behind all the TVs, and that's the thought you want to focus on. Impossible. And it's incredibly an explosion over here. And now I'm over there. So it is very hard to focus, but you take the A DH ADHD meds and it just turns the volume down on all of those.

(39:56):

You still have the ability to procrastinate. You still have the ability to not focus. You still have the [00:40:00] ability to not do your work, but it's now the environment that everyone else has, the environment where you can focus or you can develop these tools and strategies to get your work done or to get whatever you want to be doing done. So I think this perception that the A DH ADHD meds will just solve my problems. No, and also someone telling me, I mean, when I first got diagnosed, it was during my PhD and PhD students are not paid very much at all. And so I only took my meds during [00:40:30] the week because it was, I'll save some money by not needing them on the weekend and prolong my prescription for a little bit longer. But as it turns out, a DH ADHD is only during weekdays.

(40:42):

And so when I started taking my meds on weekends at the request, not the request, but the suggestion of my sister who's also diagnosed, the ability of them being able to do my laundry or go shopping for groceries or just eat a meal that day, [00:41:00] the life skills that I hadn't put the value on because it was the focus is always on the A DH. ADHD meds help you focus, help you get your work done, when actually they help you live, they help you survive. So I think the advice I've gotten was probably about what meds are, how you use them, and

Anthony Brown (41:22):

It's really helpful to think about a good way of seeing it. So how any critics that you have in the pipeline you'd like to talk about and where can listeners find out [00:41:30] more about you and your work?

Kat Ross (41:32):

Well include her. We're just about to ramp up. We'll be looking for a lot of new volunteers as well. So if you're interested in getting involved, we need all kind of people to help out and not just scientists of course. So if you're interested, you can reach out to us on Instagram, include her under STEM, STEM. You can also find us on LinkedIn, blue Sky, probably others. We have a website you can email us from there. But also you can find me on social media as well. Astro Kat Ross, Astro [00:42:00] Karos, I can't remember. Hopefully you can find me. And I'm also on LinkedIn and have a website as well, so you can find me out and about. I'd love to hear from anyone if you have questions. But also stay tuned when we do a reach out for the upcoming projects that include her has in the pipeline. Yeah.

Anthony Brown (42:16):

Thanks, Kat. That was really awesome space. It's exciting.

Meagan Cooke (42:20):

Thanks so much for joining us today.

Anthony Brown (42:22):

Thank you

Kat Ross (42:22):

So much for having me. Thank you

Anthony Brown (42:23): [00:42:30] And join today's episode. Please help us spread the word by liking, subscribing and sharing on social media. A full transcript of today's episode, along with information about our assessment, therapy, and post diagnostic services can be found at our website beyond-distracted.com. That's beyond distracted com. This podcast is intended for educational purposes. For therapeutic advice, please consult a trained and licensed professional.